Derby Preview #731: Teenage Dirtbag

A saggy biscuit would be an improvement

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@Lady5tark Will facebook voting be part of this derby?

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@Lady5tark? Is this something you can inform us in advance of the derby launch (and ideally when the themes are posted going forward)?

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Hi @acraigl, no we can not tell you whether Facebook will be a part of this derby. It is one of the mechanisms we use to keep the derby exciting so we will not be announcing before a derby launches whether that will be used that week.

Keep in mind this is an engaging opportunity for our followers on Facebook. It’s a way we can offer some fun on the Facebook page that’s not just “buy this shirt” posts all the time!

I’m not following. How does my knowledge of Facebook voting change the Shirt.woot engagement with it’s followers??? I can tell you that as an artist, I don’t love surprises. It creates extra work and stress.

I don’t think it’s unfair to inform us ahead of time how voting will be tabulated.

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The derby competition is a live event that we monitor on a daily basis and have developed a variety of tools and levers we can pull based on the performance of all aspects of the shenanigan. I’m not able to announce which lever we will pull on any given week because they are reactive in some cases and we don’t know how to react until the data is in front of us.

I think what I am personally failing to understand is how this promotion negatively impacts an artist. Even if you choose not to promote yourself on Facebook, you are not only gaining exposure though our promotion, but you can still use your own chosen promotion tactics to gain votes in the derby and win by derby votes alone if your votes outnumber the combined totals. We are not in any way limiting the way an artist can drive voters to the derby.

Facebook is also a great feedback mechanism and a direct connection to our customers for you guys. The Shirt Facebook group is comprised of actual customers that are talking to us in real time. If something isn’t resonating with them we’ll know, and you will know. With that real time data you can react quickly to give them what they want and ultimately make more $$.

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Not to speak out of turn… But it think since the vote totals are relatively low, knowing where extra votes may come from on a given week if helpful to some artist. If we fully understand how these are totaled, then we can help flood the web with our art and guide more people to woot; which i think is the ultimate goal?

So if I know FB votes will count than I need to set extra time aside to flood my groups, etc with pleas for extra votes. Doing this every week can cause voter fatigue and places that could garner major support may stop giving any, due to a regular contributor flooding a group with possibly off topic content.

If I knew FB vote would be counted on a given week, I might design to pander to a specific FB group knowing that could trigger a cascade of extra votes. I would not want to do this every week do to the reasons previously stated and because the design my not play well to the “standard” woot crowd…

Like I said, if we had voting of 500-1500 for the fog shirts then all this would be just a part of the equation. But (since the votes are low) if you get 80 likes from a FB group that is really into Onychophoran; then you could win with a design that would normally garner only a couple votes otherwise…

To get the FB votes counted, do we need to click on the share icon under the shirt image? What if we copy and pasted the URL to a specific FB group, would those likes get counted? If friends and family re-post the shirt from our feed, do those still get counted? I am only asking because I have seen “like” totals for specific posts, but I have never seen the likes tabulated in total from all the reposts back to the OP on woot.com

Please don’t tale this post as a complaint or condemnation. I am just trying to understand the process and it’s intent…

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An artist should assume that every week it is possible to have Facebook votes included in their totals.

So if I know FB votes will count than I need to set extra time aside to flood my groups, etc with pleas for extra votes. Doing this every week can cause voter fatigue and places that could garner major support may stop giving any, due to a regular contributor flooding a group with possibly off topic content.

This is exactly why it is used as a reactive mechanism, rather than a planned weekly activity. Due to it being a reactive mechanism we will not publish ahead of time that we will be doing it.

If I knew FB vote would be counted on a given week, I might design to pander to a specific FB group knowing that could trigger a cascade of extra votes. I would not want to do this every week do to the reasons previously stated and because the design my not play well to the “standard” woot crowd…

This is kind of a reason for us to not announce it ahead of time. The point is to design for the buying audience at Woot, not pander to the audience that’s going to get you to win and then not buy shirts.

Only the likes on the original Shirt.Woot Facebook post will be counted towards your totals. You can share that post and the likes will stay with it. You can also share only your image from that post and the likes will stay with it.

Ben shares some of concern (thanks @benjaminleebates).

I can’t speak for everyone, so how does it negatively impact me specifically? I don’t feel I can complete on the social platforms. When that component is involved I either have to work very hard, attempting to drum up support and/or exhaust my friends and family by double-hitting them up for votes. As Ben mentioned with the lower vote turnout, whether it’s true or not, I feel like I’m throwing away my work and derby entry if I don’t market to the facebook thing. And if that’s the case, I’d prefer to know ahead of time and make that choice for myself.

@Lady5tark, obviously you guys can do what you want. Your more lengthy response provides additional visibility into the decision making which I really do appreciate. Since you don’t know when it will happen you’ve answered the question I posed up front. What I think is getting missed here is how the artists feel about these changes. If I’m such a minority I’ll happily stand down on the subject.

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I agree with acraigl’s comments. I have no way to even begin to compete with someone that can get 60 FB votes in one hour. It is clear that the vast majority of FB votes are just friends/family/coworkers who are being badgered into voting a second time. :frowning:

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Thanks for the clarification.
So each week, we should submit as normal… Then scour FB for any group that might be interested a given design. Join that group and post our design, asap. I guess this is one way to increase your marketing team without increasing your budget… Is that called monetizing your assets? Or perhaps Guerilla marketing… lol

I can’t speak to any one persons personal feelings on this particular Derby mechanism, except maybe @kg07, we’ve had a pretty open dialogue on this topic. What I can tell you anecdotally is, I have seen a more diverse group of winners on a week to week basis after starting this Facebook voting than I have ever seen in the year I’ve been running point on the Derby.

Do I think some people that were winning more before we started this are going to be unhappy about it, yes.
Do I think that artists that didn’t stand a chance before because they aren’t original Woot artists are getting a fair shot now because of this change, yes.
Do we still exercise Editorial control when Facebook votes are a factor, absolutely.

There are lots of other self marketing avenues out there to use. Social platforms, email marketing, digital advertising, word of mouth. You don’t need to rely on Facebook to get your designs out there. You can drive your audience to vote in the derby on the Woot page.

Facebook is not the only avenue where we advertise to customers to vote in the derby. We publish banners in our other marketing emails, we publish social posts directing customers to the derby page and we spread the word internally and through our artists.

Right now the positives for the wider community outweigh the negative experiences so we are going to continue using this as part of the derby on an irregular basis.

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Yes our relationship is symbiotic, but it’s in your interest to promote yourself. Our marketing efforts are spread across all of our artists, you are fighting for exposure with us. Whereas you own your own business and can control your own marketing efforts and surface your own designs that are relevant at the time. You can be much more nimble that we can and take advantage of timely occurrences and chances to sell shirts.

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No worries… I get it. The landscape has changed. And it will continue to change. I think the derbies have always been fraught with uncertainty. I am sure that there has been far more variety since this change and randomness. It will be interesting to see the fruits of this experiment a few more months down the road. Whether it will be a net gain or loss for woot will be of great interest to us all. I think what worries most is the disruption of the process.

I know that I bring my work to WOOT because of the reach, I can’t get any traction on Teepublic or elsewhere. That group of people that woot reaches is not what it once was. However, it is still larger than I can get by myself… I think many of us do not believe that the extra FB votes will translate into sales. You and others at woot feel otherwise. It will be neat to see which is right…

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For me, I like the extra voting from Fb. I don’t get a lot of social media turnover in votes. I treat it as “look at this really cool mention on Woot’s page” and that eventually resulted in more sales than I think I would have had otherwise.

I think what matters is the attitude you bring into this. Are you designing for fun or profit? Not every shirt is going to be a winner, but hey, someone out there is walking around with a shirt that I drew, and somebody else gave me money for that effort. That’s a win.

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I appreciate the positive attitude that you bring to the derby and am trying to keep an open mind about the changes. It feels odd being labelled an established artist in the above comments resisting change when I have only been drawing/contributing since 2016, but I guess perception becomes reality at some point.

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When you started, what was the average 1st place vote count?

I can only say that my first shirt that placed got 74 votes and third place in a math derby. That was when you had to be an actual woot customer to vote, so the votes were actually (mostly) independent voters who had an interest in the derby and would actually buy shirts.

I wouldn’t call you an old-timer… Unless I did, unintentionally, lol.
I’ve been playing since early 2009. The first place in that derby was 1444 votes.
I think during my time here it has been as high as 2600 I think? Maybe during a hallowoot? I’m not sure.

I would love to see a graph of how rapidly the vote counts dipped. Was it quickly? Was there ONE event?

2,000 votes.

The votes tapering off was gradual and coincide with the multiple events since 2012 that caused the sales to taper off too.

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